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Why go to university?
Submitted by amelia does on September 7, 2007 - 11:17pm.
tags:
I just watched an interesting discussion on TVO’s The Agenda about the “University Crisis”. They spoke to two Western profs; James E. Cote (who wrote Ivory Tower Blues http://www.ivorytowerblues.com/)
and Rebecca Coulter as well as a younger guy who wrote a book about the university experience and the president of St Thomas University (New Brunswick).
For more info see:
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7&bpn=779015&...
So my first question for you is: Why will/should/did you go to university?
• Status/social pressure
• Specific job
• To develop/engage intellectually
• Can’t decide what else to do
For me it was combination of a desire to finally develop my intellect, get money to live on (OSAP) and to be in a healthier and more enriching environment than retail or welfare so I could feel better about myself and life in general.
My second question is about options: What were your choices outside of university?
• Trades
• Farming
• Other college programs
• Factory or service work
Did you go to/are you going to university because other options were not fulfilling?
What jobs are there besides working for a corporation, an institution or in government (not saying these are bad jobs)?
Do universities provide realistic preparation for the work world?
I hope to hear from ya’ll.
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I chose to go to university
I chose to go to university because I was sick of working shitty jobs. However, I chose to do an Arts/social science based degree because I wanted to learn more not because I thought I was going to get a good job out of it.
I am now still in school because I enjoy reading books and writing papers. Only now that I am doing a MA degree, I am essentially getting paid to read and write. There arent a lot of people out there who LOVE what they do for employment (atleast not as much as I love being in school).
with regards to, "Do universities provide realistic preparation for the work world?":
I dont think it is the university's duty to do such a thing. I think that opportunities are there, but you have to create them for yourself. If you just take courses for the sake of getting a degree - with the hopes of getting a job in the 'work world' - then your chances of this happening are pretty slim.
The biggest piece of advice I can give to anyone considering post-secondary education is to challenge yourself and be independent. The university isnt supposed to babysit the students, nor do I think it is the professor's duty to show you how to do your discipline. I think that the professor's role is to be a facilitator and a go-to person if you are struggling with something. Ultimately, it is in you to decide what you want out of your education and I think there are multiple opportunities if you choose this route.
university responsibility
I agree with your advice to young people, however I have to say that the university is not only a school, it is a corporation that makes money from students, the government, other corporations etc. Just look at the new buildings on the uwo campus! Millions. There is a lawsuit pending right now suing schools for stealing from every student yearly via illegal ancialliary fees.
That being said, if they are going to recruit and accept people who are not old enough to drink or smoke, the institutions need to be mindful of the fact that these people are not equipt to make all the right decisions for themselves about their lives as adults.
For example, if kids don't know how to write well and they were accepted into a school, then the school should damn well help them learn how to write. I wish that as students we could be given more excercises and workshops of no consequence to grades, that way we would be allowed to develop without constant threat of failure (and we could learn to bloody well apply ourselves for the sake of development rather than grades). This concept in nonexistant in post-secondary: the moment you walk through the door of any class you are losing marks.
Departments should also be concerned with how the skills they teach can be applied. This from personal experience with many arts streams and departments is nonexistant. Perhaps a practical approach would encourage the present lower level of work in undergrad to persuade kids to do better, to actually change and develop their own work.
stealing from students?
I dont really think universities are "stealing" from students, nor do I think ancillary fees are illegal. I am paying $122 in ancillary fees this year. Why? Because the university needs to supply students with buildings, equipment and facilities that are up to par with the standards of other universities. There is a reason why there are new buildings on campus. I have an office in one of them. Programs are expanding, or new programs are in the works. There needs to be space for students because currently, there is not enough space for grad students specifically. My grad program has 98 students in it and insufficient space for everyone to have their own work space/office; which is quite important if you are doing lab research, or if you are a TA or RA. Also, the newest building in progress right now is the recreation centre, which our student body voted on. If the majority didnt think the university should have it, then they wouldnt of voted for it. While it is important to be critical of the university and its spending of students dollars, it is also important to not just write the university off as a corporation that is "stealing" from its students because there are many people, such as myself, who find this statement to be untrue.
lawsuit
http://www.macleans.ca/education/universities/article.jsp?content=200708...
see this article on the lawsuit regarding illegal ancillay fees. There was a more recent article (a few days ago) in the Gazette but I can't find it on line. It is later reported by Maclean's that the case was lost.
It's a lot easier to be happy at the institution when you are being paid to work and to be educated there.
Why emphatically assume that the Universities and or Colleges are not taking extra fees illegally without even reading up on The Students Association of Ontario's claim?
That article is for U of T
That article is for U of T only, so I don't think we can lump all universities into one pile. Also, who lost the case? This article is titled, "alleged illegal fees" so there is no proof that it was actually illegal. I don't need to read the Students Association of Ontario's "claims" about anything - they are just that - claims - not factual evidence of illegal practices. Furthermore, I was speaking of UWO and I do not see them being sued for their ancillary fees.
Also, I'd like to point out that I was happy at UWO for my whole undergrad when I wasnt being paid to work there. In fact, I built up a pretty big student debt with osap, but was still content with the education I was getting and the institution I received my B.A. from.
uwo
I did not imply that UWO was being sued. The article in the Gazette was about several universities being taken to court, but the Maclean's article was all I could find on line realted to the other/whole story.
I have the article at homeand can post a summary of it next week when i get back.
you said:"I agree with your
you said:
"I agree with your advice to young people, however I have to say that the university is not only a school, it is a corporation that makes money from students, the government, other corporations etc. Just look at the new buildings on the uwo campus! Millions. There is a lawsuit pending right now suing schools for stealing from every student yearly via illegal ancialliary fees."
Having these sentences in the same paragraph implies that UWO was being sued.
ancillary fees "raising tuition fees through the backdoor"
The claim is not that ancillary fees are illegal themselves but that there has been illegal use of such fees.
“This June, two former college students launched an unprecedented $200 million class action lawsuit against all 24 public colleges in the province to stop the collection of illegal ancillary fees and seek compensation for students and graduates who have been forced to pay them. A case management judge has been appointed to oversee the certification process for the lawsuit and legal counsel for the representative plaintiffs filed affidavits last week that lay out a plan for the proceedings.”
“As part of its Stop Unfair Fees campaign, the Canadian Federation of Students–Ontario released a new video clip of Dalton McGuinty on YouTube.com today. The video shows the Ottawa South MPP in 1993 calling on the government to stop ancillary fees from being improperly charged for operating costs which he described as “raising tuition fees through the backdoor.”"
Link to CFS meida release
The larger question being raised by students who believe in accessibility to education is that keeping education costs low is important, be as publicly funded as possible, and not on the backs of students.
The concern is that not only are tuition fees rasing at an accelerated rate beyond inflation but that students are paying more through increased, misapplied, and/or new fees thus education is unaffordable to more people. If anyone thinks post secondary education in Ontario is worth the current value and can still be considered public or accessible, they need to do their homework in my view.
All 24public colleges and now the U o fT are being sued for illegal charges for ancillary fees and it's likely that other student union locals will follow suit. Only time will tell.
2007 Ancillary Fee Schedule
The UWO Registrar website has a breakdown of ancillary fees here.
$770 is a lot of money, but I opt out of the health plan which would otherwise be worth the $96, the bus pass is worth its weight in gold, I don't use the athletics facilities but I have in the past and a comparable membership at goodlife for 8 months is $300. Some stuff I definitely don't benefit from but, like income taxes, I don't mind paying for services for the disabled, first nations, those in need of legal support, etc. Wether or not these fees are being misapplied I have no idea, and I hope the truth is exposed in court.
thanks for the info ron
Students should be concerned with how the schools are using their money.
aahhh... is this a school?
I felt the need to tell people that the art department, that i work (work study) for at UWO sucks. This is not really news to some, it doesn't have a reputation for producing artists or being a good school. It's reputation is "theorhectical" rather than hands on. I guess no one is making the connection here that most of the students in fact will never make art again after they graduate.
I was excited to go back and start my sculpture class today, but was disssapointed to find yet another group of not very serious students who like to chatter and not learn anything. Maybe I just hate art, or art education, but I am an artist so it's tough to be with these people. I asked the head of the visual art dept today why almost nothing is being taught to us in this 3rd year course (after taking the 2nd year course last year and being taught nothing). He replied that most students like it that way. We are being taught about other art made by people in the world but there's nothing hands on and we are just expected to do our own work without any practical training at all. What am I paying for? Someone to advise me on my art? What the hell qualifies them to do that if they can't even teach me anything?
The prof's syllabus apparently is the same for all her classes, despite the fact that they are different classes (not all sculpture). She wants us to do performance and sound, which doesn't strike me as a way to develop my work as a sculptor, which is what i am trying to do (although I do like performance there is NO support for learning that either). Apparently I am the only student who bothers to talk to teachers and staff about the education we are all paying thousands for. No one seems to notice that we are not really getting an education... or that it's a school!
maybe you should try theology.
we have a great time over the road in the Huron theology department. They stick us in broom closets and dont give us any money, but the professors are all really approachable. I do sympathize with you though. I have had classes like that.
For me, I think the problem with education is how credentialist the world has become. People go through the motions at universities because they need a degree to get the job they want. They care little about what they are learning, and merely do the minimum to get through. There isn't enough love in it. Even many professors look at it as a job where pumping out students is the purpose. It's really sad for those of us who care more about intellectual stimulation than about silly titles.
There are some ombudspersons on campus who will listen to your concerns, though they may actually do little. Anyway, good luck with it.
Peace.
me and university
thanks for your comments guys
looking back I wish I could have done a degree in social sciences at Huron or one of the other smaller campusses. I started in Anthro and frankly found it too hard and Arts were easier and more my thing. Only one moreyear and then it's teacher's college for me.
word
Big ups to Dr. Bill Acres!
The reason why i go to
The reason why i go to university is for intellectual engagement and to meet people. There are many problem with the way university is set up such as competition, authority, tuition, stringency etc but the learning environment, although far from perfect, is enough to keep me interested and even excited. also, it sure beats bullshit jobs with bullshit managers and bullshit work.
my choices outside school are the above or i might get lucky and find a half satisfying job. theres entrepreneurship such as writing, or teaching under the table. theres welfare, homelessness or joining a commune or grad school and the prof thing.
at this point i could go anyway.
Too little skilled labourers!
Well, I went into academia for the sake of getting my philosophical writing published. I thought that a degree would aid me in this process, however, I discovered that academia simply couldn't challenge me intellectually nor did the doctrines appear to be pragmatic enough to engage me politically.
Not enough youth are taking up a trade to fill the huge retiring classe of trades people in Canada. I should of probably become a carpenter like my father. My gut feeling is that far too many youth are enrolling into university; and, that the institution itself is quite often remote from the contemporary realities (of economic/political deterioration) facing their local communities. Often, simply the bureaucracy prevents professors from engaging themselves, and their students, with any political or economic struggles of Canadians. We are going to experience a huge shortage in trades people regardless. We simply need trades people regardless of whether or not the middle class survives (that is, many remain afluent).
I hope to continue to build my repretoire of skills as I age so that I remain flexible/adaptable to any sort of future even if it is a politically volitile or economically uncertain one. Our society is aging and our economics are based off of 19th century models of an infinite world of undiscovered resources and land-mass. The world is now shrinking every second.
Jane Jacobs' last book was all about the shortage of skill that our commercially driven life in the 'burbs is produced. We need a future of innovation in the design and application of resourcefullness and conservation. I hope I'm already apart of the application but I know our community and I have a long way to go. We still need even more models/strategies of this regard - hopefully, academia can learn to focus more upon these tasks while seeking out the assistence of their local communities in this monumental task.
I will always be open to such a diaglogue but am a little tired of coaxing members of academia to become more engaged - the lethargy or unresourcefullness that the buraucracy permeates seems too pervasive. I'm largely tied up with trying to get by, stay heathly, while reducing my own footprint.