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voting to the front page
Submitted by Jeremy McNaughton on June 11, 2006 - 2:20am.
tags:
Hey folks,
I think now would be a good time to start requiring posts to be voted to the front page. Right now images, events, forum topics and audio files need to get voted up, but blog entries and documents are automatically put on the front page. I personally think that the site is getting enough posts every day that we can make it so blogs and documents need to get voted up too.
I'll ask that it bed added to the agenda at the next meeting.
Jeremy
No votes yet
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deleted?
did a bunch of replys get deleted from this thread?
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's just until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
yea..
the ones about the "how small can we go".. as they weren't needed..
weren't needed?!?!?!
We had a tangable measure of how small we could go... How will I know how small I can go now?!? Hmm? How will I know? WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO HIDE?
Soft on censorship...
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's just until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
some thoughts on the front page
Has there been any more discussion as to how content will make it on (and off) the front page? The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see not just the ability to vote posts towards the front page, but also the ability to vote crap off or 'away' from the front page. I think that with blogs still automatically to the front, this would at least help to keep the more interesting content from being buried or knocked off the so quickly. Was the intent of the node moderation to showcase the most popular content? or just to keep the content on the front page fresh?
Right now, dose a vote to 'keep post in this section' cancel out a vote to 'move to front'?
Also, I think that items voted to the front page seem to appear on the front in the order by which they were posted relative to the rest of rest of the content on the front page, rather than to the top of the page... (is that correct?) I think it would make more sense if the posts went to the top of the page when they get voted to the front or to a position on the front page relative to their popularity (with the most popular at the top and the 'least' popular towards the bottom to eventually be bumped off... Would that cause a problem with items that were initially very popular being at the top of the front page or on the front page for an extended amount of time? Or could there be a way to weight content that has been on the front page for a long time towards the bottom?
What about the ability to vote items 'up' and 'down/off' the front page once they make it there? Is that feasible or desirable?
I think my frustration with the front page has more to do with blogs being used to post events straight to the front page, rather then just using the 'events' option and relying on votes up to get there. It seems that many times the events are posted as both a event listing and a blog... I know everyone genuinely believes that their event is important, and I'm guilty of this too, but I think we could show better "netiquette" by trying to limit events to the events section and allowing other users on the site vote up events they think are worthy of the front page. (I also think all the content on the front page could benefit from needing a few votes to get there...). I dunno... there's always room for improvement on the site, and i think this is one area where that applies.
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
Keep the LC open
I guess my concern here is that majority democratic principles usually end up being a popularity contest of the active participants. The problem then becomes those new users, who don’t know the majority of active users, could find it difficult to get their events and ideas on the front page. In a sense this is a form of groupthink; because the majority of active users are rather like minded in their world view. I can’t say enough how many people I have sent to this site and they have told me how cliquey it is, in particular the old actionfamily crew dominates the majority of comments and posts. I for one am a part of that clique and really feel uncomfortable with not having equality of content contribution understood.
Is it truly an equal process if the majority of active voting members are close friends?
It was said that a wide range of opinions and events was something people wanted to see on the LC, however I can’t stress how unlikely that will become a reality if we start voting posts not just on, but also off the front page.
My recommendation would be to have no voting with a front page for events only (wide community content) and a big visible link to blog pages (individual viewpoints/interests/dialog within the community). This hopefully would slow down the rate of posts being dropped quickly but still allow for equal priority to posts.
Remember: More people view this page than post to it. Do you think they are interested in our ramblings or community events? What service does the LC strive to provide for the greater community. Let’s not become a gated community in what gets priority.
the value of a web-based forum for leftist types in London
Dan writes,
"What service does the LC strive to provide for the greater community[?] Let’s not become a gated community in what gets priority."
I think it is clear from much of this discussion, and from other discussions, that many (most, I think) of the people actively involved in LC would like it to evolve in the direction of being more representative of the wider London community, i.e., not just broadly leftist types.
I think that's fine. But, of course, as the site grows, and more people begin posting about things that are important to them, and opinions they hold, the character of the site will change significantly, so some people will want to move on in search of greener pastures. For instance, it will lose its appeal for me when I click on this site and find a raging debate between Christian fundamentalists and others about abortion, or when I look on the events listing and see that on Tuesday at 7pm there is a "men's rights" meeting, or a new support group for rich people who feel oppressed because their taxes are supporting welfare recipients. I don't say that such people should be silenced or kept off the internet; it's just that I would move on to other web sites, since I'm not interested in that sort of discussion (of which there is a great deal on the internet, and I just ignore it, generally)
The only thing I would say about that scenario is, as LC changes to become more reflective of the wider range of views and concerns of Londoners, including conservatives, etc., I hope someone with the relevant skills will take up the challenge of creating a site that is of special use for progressive Londoners, since right now LC provides a valuable forum for people to discuss issues from a progressive point of view and debate strategies, etc. I, for one, will miss that, so I'm hoping that a 'functional equivalent' can be developed to fill that void when the time comes.
Sd.
What about... ?
I've found that there aren't many people on the London Commons who have argued for better representation of the mainstream and the quo (sexist, starstruck, warmongering, etc) here.
Regardless, there is "a site that is of special use for progressive Londoners":
London Indymedia
Anyone can post material (which needn't be formal 'news') on that site, but London Indymedia organizers will weed out anti-progressive material that conflicts with our editorial policy.
You can find out more about the project here:
http://freedom.2y.net/wiki/London_Indymedia
yea, but...
Any one with an account can vote on content. that extends to everyone with an account, not just the elite anarchist commandos of the action.family.
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
ditto and
I agree with Mike here. But I also wonder how we would decide which events (or content in general) would be highlighted if it's not by voting?
Even if we make it so events get posted to the front page instead of blogs, we'll still run into the same problems. Events that are posted early will get pushed to the bottom so they're no longer highlighted when they finally roll around.
Balancing the front page so it works for everyone is a complicated issue. Personally I'd like to see our front page structured more like Wikipedia's. Getting Drupal to do that, and setting up the rules so the site is as nonhierarchical as possible is no trivial task. Voting may not be the best way to do it.. maybe allowing anyone (with an account) to edit the front page is, thought that may prompt edit wars.
Jeremy
disagree
I would prefer the current format over any voting system.
You’re both missing my point - only active members would be the people most likely to vote and we are the most active members. Everyone in a democracy had a vote, but many chose not to use it, because they feel left out of the process. Notice how not many people are commenting on this but us? I'll tell you right now that I would not partake in voting in this venue, because it will become nothing more that a popularity contest which is unfair.
I can see it already: private messages "Hey so-and-so, vote my event/blog up!" Or the majority doesn’t like somebody’s ideas so it drops to the bottom. After all the discussions about consensus (equal value for ideas) versus voting systems (majority rules, minority unheard) I find it hard to believe I'm arguing this with you both.
However even the AF consensus model was often that a majority made their opinions and decisions amongst their closer friends before group meetings. How many people came to AF meetings and we would say "You have equal say here" and most of them never came back, because they could see what we wouldnt listen to - we're a clique, and the inside bonds always have more power even if they are only 10% of the total.
Let's learn from our mistakes.
"Distribution of authority
"Distribution of authority among as many people as is reasonably possible. This prevents monopoly of power and requires those in positions of authority to consult with many others in the process of exercising it. It also gives many people an opportunity to have responsibility for specific tasks and thereby to learn specific skills."
I would strongly suggest reading "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" by Jo Freeman. In her four/five page pamphlet/document, inspired by the women's liberation movement, Jo has captured and articulated the power struggles which exist within and between, formal and informal organising structures. We need to proceed with caution when making these decisions as they may introduce new levels of hierarchy that were not orginally intended.
I know some of these ideas are outdated as they do not reflect some of the complexities we are facing within a digital arena but they do provide incredible insight.
Jeff
*Elitism is MAJOR problem here*
Not so much that I'm missing the point...
I just don't agree.
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
Work with me here
"Many users of the site will never vote anything to the front page, but at least the option to recommend something to the front page is there for everybody." Jeremy
The question should be why people don't use the voting feature and if we adopt it and only a cliquey few use it, what will be the impact on the LC?
Mike: Your arguing that everyone has one vote so they are on equal ground, correct?
briefly
Impact? At worst, status quo.
And Yes.
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
detailed
Thanks Mike.
Ok here’s the point I'm trying to make:
Say you have 100 members of a group and they all get one vote. Seems straight forward and equal on the surface: direct democracy. But after looking closer at the relationships between these 100 members it is found that 20 of them are close associates who meet frequently and discuss & plan what they believe is best for the whole group. Some of the other 80, say about 20-30, people may know a few other members here and there but are not in contact with the other groups of a few. The rest of the members, around 40-50, don’t really know anyone well at all in the group other than through the large group and when/where it meets in large. Can we say all 100 members have an equal vote knowing this?
This is an illustration but I think the point I’m trying to raise is clear (I hope).
In my women’s studies class we learned about different types of equality: Formal & Substantive equality. Formal gives everyone equal rights (ie. Everyone has one vote) but doesn’t recognize the fact that rarely, if ever, are people in any social environment equal in experience, opportunity, and/or access to decision making ‘power’. Substantive equality takes into account that there are differences between people’s experiences, opportunities, and/ their access to decision making ‘power’.
This is my fear: the people who are not connected to the clique on the LC will have less ability to post because their opinions might be outside of the clique’s viewpoints.
I’m not even talking about right-wing Nazi shit – but people who are interested in progressive ideas, which are not exclusive to one way of thinking that cliques get caught in (groupthink).
Anyways, I do realize the LC is worried about too much clutter on the front page and perhaps this must be dealt with. But I for one do not want to judge what is ‘crap’ and what is not. I want to see it all, even Magnum PI. That is why I voted 'yes' to the poll should blog entries automatically go to the front page? Perhaps a clear definition of what constitutes a blog on the LC could be a solution.
possible, but probable?
I really don't think that people from the "clique" are going to start conspiring behind the scenes to control the front page... I don't even think its particularly probable that they'll manipulate the front page through some sort of unconscious group-think, because even within this "clique" there's a diversity of opinions and preferences.
Would the "20 of them are close associates who meet frequently and discuss & plan what they believe is best for the whole group" be the metaphorical equivalent to the folks that go to LC meetings? I ask because my understanding is that they're not meeting on content, but on policies and the such.
I don't see how the practice of voting to and from the front page really impairs any one's "ability" to post content, regardless of their standing within this "clique". their desire to post, perhaps, but not their ability. Every one who has an account has the ability to post to the site. Weather or not they want to, that's really up to them.
I have an example too: A photographer is discouraged from posting photos of an event. This is because after the effort of shooting a previous event, getting film developed, spending an afternoon editing, scanning and retouching photos and posting to the commons, his post was buried after ten minuets on the front page by a Blog entry used send a notice of an speaker's event in solidarity with the 'Popular Front for the Council of the Indigenous Peoples of Choompa-Loompa' straight to the front page. An event that has also been announced with an event calendar listing, a document post containing a .pdf of the poster for the event, a posting on the LAN, it's own thread in the forum and in a blog entry of another active user the previous day. To make this event more discouraging, the photographer really feels that this event is of a limited interest to anyone outside of the circle of campus activists and really is of limited value within the context of community activism.
So where was I going with all that? What can I say, there's lots of events that i just don't care about, just as I'm sure there's lots of people who don't care about pictures from Caledonia or pictures of a local protest march. At least with a voting mechanism, everyone manifest their interests by contributing to a post's prominence on the site. I guess I'd rather see the lurkers (and active users) with a chance to contribute to the site by giving them a chance to mold the site towards representing their interests. I'd rather see my posts get buried because people actually aren't interested then because someone is gaming one of the features to get their event to the top of the pile. I mean lets face it. The same 'clique' that your worried about using votes to control the front page is doing it through using the blog feature to get post their content straight to the front page now.
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
If even possible: why change it? risk vs. result
I never used the word conspiracy Mike.
Perhaps this cut from the link Jeff provided will make it clearer:
“Elites are not conspiracies. Seldom does a small group of people get together and try to take over a larger group for its own ends. Elites are nothing more and nothing less than a group of friends who also happen to participate in the same political activities. They would probably maintain their friendship whether or not they were involved in political activities; they would probably be involved in political activities whether or not they maintained their friendships. It is the coincidence of these two phenomena which creates elites in any groups and makes them so difficult to break.” The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman
The clique I am referring to is the old AF crew and the group of friends we have, who yes dominate the majority of posts. However I fail to see how voting things to the front page will make this any better; in fact it could make it worse because if the clique voted for most of its own stuff then the likelihood of other’s content being on the front page greatly diminishes. How are you going to feel if nobody votes for your pictures up? (most likely not going to happen becasue you have the 'privilege' of being in the clique)
On the other hand what if ten things get voted up per day, then the items on the front page will drop just as fast as they do now but only in the order that they are voted to the front page, as opposed to when they were posted there by the content creator.
If a member of the LC is not part of a network of people they know on the LC and their viewpoint is outside of the majority of people on the LC then they have less ability (as in not equal) to be a part of the community, even with one vote.
The reason events get posted to the front page is shown in the poll you set up, showing 52% use the front page to usually navigate content: it makes promotion sense. Considering the vast amount of front page content is event oriented (and has had such a great inpact in the community in large becasue of it) I don't understand this need to prioritize what events are worthy and what are not for the front page.
But just as fast as your pictures get buried so does everyone else’s content. Should I be upset because an event I’m spending over 20 hours a week gets bumped down by Stormtroopers hugging Cylons? No, in fact I think that’s what makes the LC great; cyber anarchy in a fun way.
for the record
...They're not hugging, they're dancing.
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
tha'click and the Waste LANd
I can really only think of 5 ex-a.fers that post here regularly and maybe another 2-3 who post occasionally. That's out of almost 300 users. I'm not so sure it's such a given that the a.f group-think is going to be able to outweigh the other 290 users. Even if most of those accounts aren't active, there's still a ton of active users and lurkers who could potentially use a vote function to shape the site...
-30-
Mike.
"We only wear black, but that's only until something darker comes along..." -Anonymous Black Bloc Member.
Numbers
How many of those 290 accounts are actively being used?
The polls are an indication. Only one poll has received more than 30 votes. There have been less than 20 votes in most polls.
And voting in a poll isn't much activity; this voting isn't comparable to posting content, let alone to posting and then requesting votes to get to the front page.
Voters also don't necessarily have relationships with other site members.
a figure
77 people have accessed thier accounts in the last ten days.
that's not so bad.
-r.
No, it's not so bad,however
No, it's not so bad,
however under 20 of them posted or voted.
the few are the active members who could
end up deciding what content makes the front page.
that's bad, the way I see it.
status quo
while i'm sure someone has already made this point, but i refuse to read this entire thread! it's just too damn cumbersome. I don't see how voting content to the front page would be much different from the way things work now (in terms of 'excluding others'). What ends up on the front page is what has been posted by those 20 or so active members anyway. It would just end up being the case that the more useful info. those active members are putting out would hit the front page and remain there longer. Besides, i imagine that if voting was causing the site to get stale it could just as easily be turned off.
-----------------------------------
"First, let me make it very clear - poor people aren't necessarily killers" - G.W. Bush
Definition for blog entries
I think this is a good idea. The definitions/explanations for the posting options do not clearly indicate where the entry will end up once it is sent. What about a posting button that clearly indicates it is specifically for the front page. We could use a wiki to sort how it would be worded and what type of content should be emphasized. The wiki will need to be well advertised on the site so that people have a chance to engage. The posting that is made to endorse/advertise the wiki would also act, for those who are not familiar with how wiki's work, to engage in dialogue about what is being expressed on the wiki. Those who have a some experience with a wiki can than offer to make amendents for people who need the help or, time allowing, offer the individual a tutorial on how to use...etc.
This brings me to the point of the front page posting option. If we clearly lay out what we would like to see on the front page then people may be more apt to refrain from posting some inside joke that will bump someones news or organising post etc.. Now if people don't follow the suggestion... people will act the way they feel they need to at that time. So be it. At least there will be a clear and obvious comittment that individuals will make when they decide to post 'to the front' page, as opposed to their personal blog.
Jeff
Arts/Events should goto the front page automatically
I couldn't agree more Jeff. Voting is always the easy way out.
Clearly defining, and sticking by that definition through moderators (unless otherwise changed by the group decision making process) of what constitutes a blog and document on the LC would help this situation more than going to a direct democracy approach. Something should go to the front page automatically and as I have stated before, I think since the LC wants to serve as a meeting place for the London community to meet offline, that events (people meeting people!) would have priority through documents. Also I believe art (including pictures) should automatically go to the front page, in the form of documents.
we need to have a meeting
We haven't had an LC meeting, to the best of my knowledge, in quite a while.
I think it's time we got that ball rolling again.
we can discuss in person such issues as front page content, voting etc.
What do you think?
-r.
events
technically events are put on the front page. The "Upcoming Events" sidebar shows the events that are within a few days away. and the calendar is a click away. so I agree with you on the idea of events not being posted twice.
also on that note, there seems to be alot of reposts happening on here, and not just events+blogs, but just people posting the same thing twice..
problem with events sidebar
While the events sidebar is a great visual reminder of an event, it is not a good way to get people to events except at the last minute. As a community orgainizer, the general rule is at least one weeks notice (more than two is best) because most people plan a week in advance. If I were to rely solely on the events sidebar as the primary way to get an event known, the LC would not be a top priority for my outreach efforts. Most events on the side bar are with 24-48 hours: great reminder, but not a way to reach mass numbers in advance for an event.
true..
that is a slight problem.
I wonder if it could be changed to show stuff more in advance, maybe there's a more enhanced/detailed version for the sidebar.
I think it just lists the 3 closest events to the current date.
it's a big site
This is a big site, and it's supposed to be here for all Londoners. To try and accomodate different crowds, the site offers different features: an events calendar, forums, classifieds. Though they may are not (yet) used as often as the politics section, there are sections for music, literature, bikes and more.
Hopefully people who use this site to find out what's going on find the calendar easily enough. There's room for improvement which will certainly come as the site evolves, but right now the calendar is given lots of clout. Calendar is the first in the list of links at the top of every page, and the Upcoming Events block in the sidebar lists the three next events along with a link to the whole calendar.
The calendar also has an easy URL: LondonCommons.net/event. Once a visitor is viewing the calendar, there is an option directly above it to filter by event type if they want to narrow it down because too many are listed. When the calendar is only displaying events of the type "Political actions" it can be bookmarked in the visitor's browser.
Our calendar also supports the iCal format. There's a little icon directly below the list of upcoming events in the sidebar and directly below the calendar at LondonCommons.net/event. The icon looks like a mini calendar, and if the mouse hovers over it the caption reads "Add this calendar to your iCalendar." This may not be that easy to find for most people. But it's pretty handy for people who use calendars on their computers, cell phones, music players and PDAs. The calendar software on my computer checks the LC calendar every twelve hours and shows events posted to the site right along side my appointments. I only had to click the link once, and am now informed on community events without even visiting the site.
We could also increase the list of upcoming events. It's set to 3 because that's the default and I never thought to change it.
But like I said at the beginning of the post, the calendar is only one part of the whole site. I hope that people start using the site for a lot more than just politics. I'd like to see it full of art, music, restaurant and play reviews, and people just being people and discussing everyday life with their neighbours. IMHO this will attract a much larger audience for the site. And a larger audience for the site means more people seeing the events posted on the calendar.
Jeremy
However...
...given people's voting behaviour (duh, we don't vote) you might have an empty front page.
:)
Charles